Daniel Madison

[urban entropy]

I'll point out that no one here is saying that DM is not good at what he does.


I find him quite interesting, talented and intelligent.
I also have studied a few of his lecture notes and found a lot of great ideas that I use.

The memento deck is brilliant, especially when combined with a great presentaiton and the 1800's deck.

All of that said, DM is not underground.

DM, and his work are both by definition underground.

Huh?

That's like saying Theory11 and Ellusionist is underground. Both are far from, and DM is featured on Theory11 and also featured in XB2 which is available here on E.

That is one definition, but I don't see how it is relevant here. We are talking about a person, not information.

Well, you haven't given another definition that makes sense or fits so..............

What Feras said is extremely relevant. So relevant that you missed it. So stop and think about it because I refuse to blatantly spell it out.

Maybe underground is a trend and a brand to some, but that does not change the fact that DM is underground.

Yes it does. DM is moving towards becoming a brand. Just the way that his marketing, and material work. He puts it together stylistically to reflect what he does, which is fine; but at the same time he automatically takes himself out of the underground and into the mainstream.

Let me put it to you another way:

David Cronenberg used to be an underground filmmaker. A filmmaker who made small films that ran in theaters. The Fly being one of his most well known.

That all changed with "A History of Violence." David officially crossed over into mainstream A list directing at that point.

No going back.

Joining T11 was Daniel Madison's History of Violence, or at least one among many choices he made.

urban

[Medifro]

Oh! Medifro is Feras.

Nice to meet you :)

That is one definition, but I don't see how it is relevant here. We are talking about a person, not information.

Its .. fairly relevant.

DM, and his work are both by definition underground.

To clear things out, my post was aimed towards magicians and the magic community in general and its not meant to pinpoint certain magicians by any means, something I tried to avoid.

Cheers,
~ Feras

[4757joshua2]

I'll point out that no one here is saying that DM is not good at what he does.


I find him quite interesting, talented and intelligent.
I also have studied a few of his lecture notes and found a lot of great ideas that I use.

The memento deck is brilliant, especially when combined with a great presentation and the 1800's deck.

All of that said, DM is not underground.



Huh?

That's like saying Theory11 and Ellusionist is underground. Both are far from, and DM is featured on Theory11 and also featured in XB2 which is available here on E.



Well, you haven't given another definition that makes sense or fits so..............

See post number 23.

What Feras said is extremely relevant. So relevant that you missed it. So stop and think about it because I refuse to blatantly spell it out.

I agree that what Feras said is true. That is one type of underground. But what does an underground cash of information have to do with whether DM is underground or not?



Yes it does. DM is moving towards becoming a brand. Just the way that his marketing, and material work. He puts it together stylistically to reflect what he does, which is fine; but at the same time he automatically takes himself out of the underground and into the mainstream.

Take a look at this:

3. designating or of newspapers, films, music, etc. that are unconventional, experimental, radical, etc.

We all agree that his work is unconventional and radical don't we? That makes him underground-though not in the way you would think of underground- does it not?



Let me put it to you another way:

David Cronenberg used to be an underground filmmaker. A filmmaker who made small films that ran in theaters. The Fly being one of his most well known.

That all changed with "A History of Violence." David officially crossed over into mainstream A list directing at that point.

No going back.

Joining T11 was Daniel Madison's History of Violence, or at least one among many choices he made.

urban

I'm just saying that DM is underground in the sense I mentioned above, not that he is secret or not a brand.

[4757joshua2]

Nice to meet you :)

Cheers,
~ Feras

You too! :) /////} (That's a smiley with a plate full of pancakes in front of him.)

[Medifro]

You too! :) /////} (That's a smiley with a plate full of pancakes in front of him.)

Now thats creative, *laughs out loud*, love pancakes by the way.

Josh, here is a question, ( and I'm using DM to illustrate my point, apply it to all magicians ):
How is being underground related to the magician's skill?

Lets say that DM is not underground, will this affect his skill, or your respect to him, by any means?

Cheers,
~ Feras

[urban entropy]

I agree that what Feras said is true. That is one type of underground. But what does an underground cash of information have to do with whether DM is underground or not?

It has everything to do with it.

We all agree that his work is unconventional and radical don't we? That makes him underground-though not in the way you would think of underground- does it not?

No on both counts. I don't think DM's thinking is any more radical than any other creator I have met. Some of his stuff is ingenious for sure.......although not life changing and radically different like say.......Ed Marlo.

Two different names, and two very different followings.

No he is not underground. Not at all. Not even close. He is Overground. He is so Overground that he will never, ever, be underground.

Unless this Hunger stunt puts him permantently 6 feet under.

urban

[Medifro]

No he is not underground. Not at all. Not even close. He is Overground. He is so Overground that he will never, ever, be underground.
urban

Here is the point I'm trying to arrive at.

I'll point out that no one here is saying that DM is not good at what he does.

This point is particularly interesting in the newish "underground" concept. For some reason, in today's magic market, "underground magician" actually means "extremely skilled" ( thus making it a valid marketing ploy ). Hence, when you take away the "title" from the magician's name, you'll be accused of lowering down his status. Let me be more clear about this: The accusations will mostly come from younger magicians, who fall in love with the whole "underground" idea, and come to idolize the "magic underground". Take out the term "underground" from one of their idols, and you'll be met by flames, where in reality, you did not comment on that magician's skill. Reailty check: Underground or not, this factor is no way related to skill.( presentation, technique or otherwise )

Juan Temariz (Spanish card magician ) is considered a celebrity in Spain, that would take him from the newish "underground" term. I wouldn't be surprised if one magician ( I'm guessing a young cardguy) would look down on his material, because the guy isn't "hip" enough, he's not "underground" enough.

Cheers,
~ Feras
P.S, for all young magicians out there, I don't mean to stereotype or offend at all, I'm merely stating what I see.
P.S.S, I'm young too, I'm 21!

[Wolvy]

Dai Vernon was "Underground" at one point in time, tho most people generally stop being "underground" has they get older and become known through the community.

The term underground makes people think they are freedom fighters and have some higher understanding of whats really going on. Which is false. Daniel Madison USED to be underground when he got started, but the second he started producing DVD's and lecture notes and has his own website. He stopped being underground.

For a magician to be "underground". His work has to be unknown by the community and impossible to get a hold of.

Stencels Aces was an underground routine for awhile. This was in fact the routine that introduced Vernon to Larry Jennings. I'd say if something amazes Vernon and he has no idea how it was achieved. Then that is underground.

[4757joshua2]

Now thats creative, *laughs out loud*, love pancakes by the way.

Here's a magician...


:)


...and here's the person watching him!


0:
Josh, here is a question, ( and I'm using DM to illustrate my point, apply it to all magicians ):
How is being underground related to the magician's skill?

Lets say that DM is not underground, will this affect his skill, or your respect to him, by any means?

Cheers,
~ Feras

Nope. I don't care if he's overground, underground, in the closet, or on the moon.

I don't think DM's thinking is any more radical than any other creator I have met.

Well I do. That makes him underground to me.

Reailty check: Underground or not, this factor is no way related to skill.(

Clap clap clap.

[Wanderer]

I think good points are made on both sides, and I think what we really need is a new level of groundification. Josh brought up a great point that Daniel Madison is underground because he is not known to the masses like Copperfield and Blaine are. Others argued that Sir Madison is not underground because he has his material released on DVD's and such.

I think we need three groupings.

1. Underground- Magicians who only release their material to a select group of magicians

2. Middleground(or sub-overground)- These are the magicians that are not well known to the average joe. This class includes magi such as Daniel Madison, Dan and Dave, Jay Sankey, Daniel Garcia, etc. This also includes companies such as Ellusionist, Theory11, and any other retail magic site.

3. Overground- This is the class of magicians that everyone, or almsot everyone, magician or not, knows about and/or has seen on TV or in person. This grouping consists of Criss Angel, David Blaine, David Copperfield, and the like.

Then there's a group independant of all the previous groups.

Magicians- This is the class that includes all magicians. This group has been conceived to please those who think that a magician is a magician and their location in relation to Earth's crust is irrelevant. I'm sure those people exist somewhere.

[urban entropy]

Josh brought up a great point that Daniel Madison is underground because he is not known to the masses like Copperfield and Blaine are.

By that logic every magician save for Blaine and Copperfield are underground. That would include Derren Brown, Cyril, D. Garcia, W. Houchin, Aaron Fischer, etc etc. add infinity. Doesn't hold up and nor should it.

Arguing that Daniel Madison is underground is akin to arguing that A list filmmakers are underground because they are not household names like Stephen Spielberg.

I think we need three groupings.

I think we need to avoid muddling a rather simple issue.

Daniel Madison is the UK DG. Master of the Overground.

urban

[Wolvy]

I think it's silly trying to come up with different groups based on if the general public knows of them or not.

Daniel Madison was once and Underground Magician at one point in time in his career. The day he made DVD's and a website with lecture notes so people could perform his effects. He became a regular published magician.

Now he may still call himself underground because he likes the title. But in the words of House. "Just because you say it, doesn't make it true."

[pawnshopbutcher]

madison's work is well done but lacks passion. it seems that...no matter how complicated or well executed his moves are...they come off a little boring to me. it's also hard to get over his whole "persona" thing...it's very contrived. i think this is an issue i see with a alot of decent magicians...they work so hard on creating "themselves" that it comes off too polished, too made-up...even if it's true! i think in his bio he has a little part where he explains that his unbelievable literary personality is...in fact..."real."

don't get me wrong DM is obviously talented...and can be entertaining...but too much fluff and not enough "umph!"

[De'vo]

I very much like Daniel Madison and is why I put him in the new XB Vol II DVD! His style of flourishing stands out from the standard XCM and even the other 2 handed cut work out there. His style isn't for everyone, but at least it fits him. That's what I love about true artists, they do what works for them, and not necessarily what someone else thinks about it, and not trying to copycat someone else. It's him, it's his style, and I respect him for that. His talent and passion is clearly evident to me, and to many others.

As far as "underground" goes... I haven't met a laymen yet that knows him. Shoot, even world champion magicians like Michael Ammar and other pros like David Roth and Paul Gertner have never been heard of by people yet they've even been on television and have more skill than any of the "known" magicians on the television. When you tell people how great they are, they always say "never heard of him". And they wouldn't unless they are in the "underground" magic loop, or happen to remember their "name" from a show instead of "that good magician". There are plenty of real performing magicians (not internet magicians or magic groupies) that have never heard of Daniel either, or me for that matter. When I think about underground performers, I think of those that aren't known by the general public or in the lime-lights. Much like underground comics and so on. Not everyone lives on the internet, buys from Ellusionist or stays in touch with the latest and greatest. Underground rap or mix tapes is another good example. If you go to the right sites you can buy them left and right, but you may not ever hear them on the radio, and is why they are "underground".

Just for thought.

De'vo

[Goudinov]

I believe the "Underground" most people in this thread are referring to is the über-secret underground of magicians that don't release their material to the magic community.

Maybe they need their own term, like... Magic Moles... or SubUnderground, or Below the Below, or WAAAAAAY Under the Rainbow, or Sewer Dwellers, or Planet Core, or Zero Degrees, or Natural Gas Deposits...